Hero With No Fear, indeed. You are nothing but a posturing child. He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn ; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.
Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now!
Kill him! He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. As seen above, Dooku manages to unbalance Anakin by bringing up his fear, fear of what would happen if he actually allowed his emotions to run free. Anakin went from battering Dooku to the Count almost playing with him after being distracted by said fear, until Sidious gives him "permission" to cut loose.
I get it, now" and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too. The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.
The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste -- all the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life -- are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.
It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back.
That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind.
He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. So, to reiterate, Anakin went from being played with by Dooku when being burdened by his fear to absolutely stomping him once he allowed himself to let go of said fear and allowing his fury to replace it.
This is the very same state of mind Anakin was in during Operation Knightfall, while his Mustafar iteration after his fear and self doubts returned is more in line with his base Jedi self in terms of combative ability. So, now that we have established Anakin as significantly underperforming during the duel, let's asses his opponent, his former master Obi-Wan Kenobi.
We know for a matter of fact that Anakin was stronger, more powerful and a better duelist than Obi-Wan during RotS, even as a Jedi before further growing upon his turn to the dark side.
He's gone past Obi. The difference between an 8 and a 9 really is the dark side. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.
Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.
Source: The Making of Revenge of the Sith. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that. The only reason Obi-Wan who on Mustafar should be a high tier 8 was even able to match Vader was his knowledge on his former apprentice and the very nature of his fighting style.
Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.
His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other's favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin's attack.
Lightsabers humming, they battled their way down the hall and into the control center. It felt Years of fighting side-by-side left these warriors evenly matched, and their exhausting duel crossed the fiery landscape of a Mustafar refinery. In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash. Exchanges flashed. Leaps were sideslipped or met with flying kicks; ankle sweeps skipped over and punches parried.
The door of the control center fell in pieces, and then they were inside among the bodies. Consoles exploded in fountains of white-hot sparks as they ripped free of their moorings and hurtled through the air. Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet. Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back , and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.
A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill. He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.
Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free. Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were. Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.
Battered on the defenses of Obi Wan, in a manner reminiscent of how he battered Dooku, Obi Wan's extensive knowledge of Anakin the only reason he was even alive. And Obi Wan being far more optimized to fight Anakin than Dooku was. Blasted him with the force, twice, one when he was even dead-to-rights. And stunning Obi Wan in a single blast, who is one of the most durable beings in the mythos. A kind of beating which is rather fitting for a 9 to give to an 8, despite Vaders previously discussed hinderance.
This part of the fight is hugely tilted in Anakin's favor. Obi-Wan lets go. Of every single thing. All of his fears, all of his regrets, all of his past demons. As people who have picked up even a single book on Obi-Wan know, Obi-Wan's mental state really isn't anywhere close to being as calm and composed as he looks in the show, or in the movies. The next section of the fight shows just how big of a difference letting go of his attachments made.
Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood.
He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders. Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the blacksand shoreline of a lake of fire.
Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it. It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury.
He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished. Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop. Anakin came on. Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before.
They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves.
Flares of energy crackled and spat. This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals. Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again.
They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.
Where before he was getting battered by Anakin's power, he is flawlessly parrying Anakin's attacks here, with no strain or any hint that Anakin is overmatching him, visible. Where before he was getting blasted multiple times by Anakin's power, he is effortlessly deflecting Anakin's force blasts here, both instances being right in the middle of combat.
He is, factually near-equaling Anakin over here. Obi Wan has attained this level, not by letting go of his attachment to Anakin yet , but by letting go of every other emotional weight and past horrors, he has accumulated throughout his life. They would be present with him throughout, till this point, and the context of the fight has no bearing on them here.
Ultimately, he has transcended his former self. The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand.
He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked. The lake of fire, no longer held back by the ray shield, chewed away the shore on which the plant stood, and the whole massive structure broke loose, sending both warriors skidding, scrabbling desperately for handholds down tilting durasteel slopes that were rapidly becoming cliffs; they hung from scraps of cable as the plant's superstructure floated out into the lava, sinking slowly as its lower levels melted and burned away.
Anakin kicked off from the toppling superstructure, swinging through a wide arc over the lava's boil. Obi-Wan shoved out and met him there, holding the cable with one hand and the Force, angling his blade high. Anakin flicked a Shien whipcrack at his knees. Obi-Wan yanked his legs high and slashed through the cable above Anakin's hand, and Anakin fell. Pockets of gas boiled to the surface of the lava, gouting flame like arms reaching to gather him in.
But Anakin's momentum had already swung back toward the dissolving wreck of the collection plant, and the Force carried him within reach of another cable.
Obi-Wan whipped his legs around his cable, altering its arc to bring him within reach of the one from which Anakin now dangled, but Anakin was on to this game now, and he swung cable-to-cable ahead of Obi-Wan's advance, using the Force to carry himself higher and higher, forcing Obi-Wan to counter by doing the same; on this terrain, altitude was everything.
Simultaneous surges of the Force carried them both spinning up off the cables to the slant of the toppling superstructure's crane deck. Obi-Wan barely got his feet on the metal before Anakin pounced on him and they stood almost toe-to-toe, blades whirling and crashing on all sides, while around them the collection plant's maintenance droids still tinkered mindlessly away at the doomed machinery, as they would continue to do until lava closed over them and they melted to their constituent molecules and dissolved into the flow.
A roar louder even than the volcano's eruption came from the river ahead; metal began to shriek and stretch. The river dropped away in a vertical sheet of fire that vanished into boiling clouds of smoke and gases. He turned Anakin's blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart.
Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck. He hurtled down past level after level, and only a few tens of meters above the lava itself the Force called a dangling cable to his hand, turning his dive into a swing that carried him high and far, to the very limit of the cable. As though jumping from a swing in the Temple playrooms, his velocity sent him flying up and out over a catenary arc that shot him toward the river's shore.
Not quite to. But the Force had led him here, and again it had not betrayed him: below, humming along a few meters above the lava river, came a big, slow old repulsorlift platform, carrying droids and equipment out toward a collection plant that its programming was not sophisticated enough to realize was about to be destroyed. Obi-Wan flipped in the air and let the Force bring him to a catfooted landing. An adder-quick stab of his lightsaber disabled the platform's guidance system, and Obi-Wan was able to direct it back toward the shore with a simple shift of his weight.
He turned to watch as the collection plant shrieked like the damned in a Corellian hell, crumbling over the brink of the falls until it vanished into invisible destruction.
Obi-Wan lowered his head. The little droid was vastly swifter than Obi-Wan's logy old cargo platform, and Anakin was easily able to swing around Obi-Wan and cut him off from the shore. Obi-Wan shifted weight one way, then another, but Anakin's droid was nimble as a sand panther; there was no way around, and this close to the lava, the heat was intense enough to crisp Obi-Wan's hair.
Anakin leaned aside and deflected the thrust almost contemptuously; he missed a cut at Obi-Wan's legs as the Jedi Master flew past him. Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank.
Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back— Half a second too slow. So Obi-Wan received two absolutely monumental boosts mid-fight, which allowed him to fight evenly with a hindered Vader, who hadn't eaten or slept in days and was emotionally vulnerable and conflicted by fear and doubt.
This state of Kenobi should honestly be far beyond his base RotS incarnation and is probably on the very pinnacle of tier 8, in my opinion beyond even people like Dooku. That coupled with Anakin operating significantly below his peak allowed Obi-Wan to narrowly outfight his former apprentice by using a single mistake to end the battle.
Before that point even amped Obi-Wan was being defeated by hindered Anakin. The Mustafar fight is hugely circumstantial and should not be used to lowball Anakin nor to asses the capabilities of an unhindered Knightfall Vader operating at his peak. We have discussed all of this at length in the past. Anakin has vastly better duelling feats, be it stomping Dooku, killing Drallig in three moves or dominating peak Kenobi while hindered.
It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.
The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart. An epic duel made impossible by time. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do!
He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess.
Under Palpatine's supervision, surgical droids transformed Vader's mutilated body into an armored cyborg. Although the Dark Lord was entirely dependent on his armor's life support systems, and his formidable powers were drastically reduced by his injuries, he remained strong with the Force for the rest of his life.
Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive.
The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful. And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory , and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.
By returning to Anakin in his prime, when he was the young man that old 'Ben' Kenobi ultimately recalls as a good friend, Lucas is arguably more effective than even Luke Skywalker at reviving and restoring the character.
The Emperor saw in Luke Skywalker a better servant than his father. Luke was young and powerful,while Darth Vader had become a shadow of the man he once was. Palpatine played the two Skywalkers against each other, and in the end, Luke defeated his father. For Ben, Vader has straight-up called that fight just sport. Suggesting that he toyed with Ben, due to his need for revenge after so long, enjoying the moment, and him now being stronger than he was on Mustafar while Ben was weaker, we also both know that he toyed with Luke, unlike Anakin while fighting those, and remember that Anakin lost to Obi-Wan, and no matter how many times you lie that he was hindered, canon will always trump headcanon:.
That in no way suggests Yoda is above Vader or faster than him though? Frozen already established that Lucas's quotes are below actual storytelling with an omniscient narrator via Pablo, come on now. That eliminates 2 quotes you posted, insider 72 is likewise comparing only power we see in classic films, on-screen which was low due to the era they were made at, I mean best Vader did is throw few small metal pieces on-screen lol, it is not talking about who is more powerful in the context of EU.
Then we have a quote from the ROTS novel, it only talks about him just moments after his surgery, nobody ever denied he was weaker then, he suppressed his pre-suit self in the next decade, so that is not relevant.
Also, quote calling him" in his prime, does not refer to force power, prime can mean:. He was then happy, had a wife, children on the way, etc, was personally most successful, there is no proof that it refers to the force power and assuming that, which would contradict actual quotes Vader has that due to refer to force power directly, while we have a perfectly valid alternative, would be dishonest debating, same is with being a shadow of the man he once was, that is about the fact that he is now burned, dependent on the suit to live, lost potential to be as powerful as he would, lost everything he once held dear, not power he controls, leaving you with 3 quotes.
I suspect the question was worded like that on purpose so people can wank Vader when it's clearly supposed to be a representation of a fight between ANH Vader and base TPM Maul. Fair, though he has contradicted himself on this specific fight in the past with the fight being referenced in other material as well, so it's of dubious canonicity as least, but if you want to disregard it that's fine.
You know your argument is shit when not even the biggest Vader wankers have deluded themselves into thinking that. Suggesting that he toyed with Ben, due to his need for revenge after so long, enjoying the moment.
Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader , he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape. He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.
But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes.
Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal. Not a skill feat. Prove that Ferus is as fast as RotS Obi-Wan consistently, doesn't really work when a vastly stronger Vader can't blitz a vastly weaker Kenobi. Basic reading comprehension and logic really. So we're taking random popcorn quotes over statements made by Lucas during movie production now? He was then happy, had a wife, children on the way, etc, was personally most successful, there is no proof that it refers to the force power and assuming that.
I think given the feats Vader has, to show just how much more powerful he is, I don't really think it is wank , just the only thing that makes sense which author supported, hell if you could find just one, single stuff that says it was supposed to be base TPM Maul, I would concede in a moment.
But really this is the keyword here, "in the past", but as he in said it is non-canon to EU, then that would retcon all those as well as any reference that was a decade older, as Chee is an authority on this stuff just like Martin, both are members of Story Group, so I think we really should ignore everything else we disagree on, we will not agree on a version of Maul and whatnot, but it seems that we agree on this, so let's just focus on this part, Chee said it is non-canon in , end, no more debate.
Vader blocked the attack easily. Obi-Wan attacked again, and again, Vader blocked each strike. If the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking instead of defending, he was mistaken. Vader riposted, sped up his timing, and took the initiative, forcing the erstwhile Jedi to defend. He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force. Obi-Wan twirled and blocked a slash, then wove a defensive pattern with his blade.
The Force was still with the old Jedi; he was able to anticipate Vader's strikes and block or parry them. But after a quick exchange, Vader felt the energy shift in his favor. Vader shoved, hard, and they broke the clash. Obi-Wan retreated a step. Vader felt the fierce anticipation of victory pound in his heart. Another exchange-four, five, six attacks and blocks-and Vader knew the old man was weakening. The Force might be strong in Obi-Wan, but the dark side was stronger in Vader.
It let him anticipate his adversary's strikes and counter them almost before they began. Obi-Wan knew it, too. He began a retreat, backing away, his lightsaber itself seeming weaker as he moved. Vader backed Obi-Wan past an open blast door leading to the forward dock where the Rebel freighter was being held under guard.
The old man was obviously tiring. You're mine, old man, Vader thought. He used Vader's Sith Lord title mockingly, as if he were addressing an unfortunately named child. He had hoped the insult might catch Vader off guard, and followed with a sudden lunge, but Vader easily blocked it with his own weapon.
There was a loud electric crackle as the blades made contact. Obi-Wan swung again and again, and Vader parried each strike. Other sources also depict Vader as straining Ben just through his mere presence alone, far from them being any kind of a match:.
The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain, as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes. They start for the Millennium Falcon. Ben sees the troops charging toward him and realizes that he is trapped. Vader takes advantage of Ben's momentary distraction and brings his mighty lightsaber down on the old man.
Ben manages to deflect the blow and swiftly turns around. In the movie itself, Vader also states" your powers are weak old Man" to further enforce that he thought of Ben as fodder and that he was treating it as a sport.
Neither is what Anakin did, he has a big stats edge on all of those, so it is only fair. As for Ferus, he was said to be comparable even when he was not amped, Old Ben was also not vastly weaker to be frank:. Ferus's Jedi training made him move quicker than an ordinary bystander, dodging almost in time with Obi-Wan.
What basic reading comprehension and logic lol, did you think about that yourself or did someone help you with that? I mean come on, If you move faster than all but one person, no "logic" would dictate that you are slower than him by default, logic would dictate that when 2 people are just as fast, neither moves faster, right?
And Vader grew far more powerful after this as well, so did his speed, not to mention that quote for Anakin is clearly contradicted by Obi-Wan keeping up with him. But i have 7 though and even if we had just as many, my quote came from , so it retcons all yorus as they are older. I think given the feats Vader has, to show just how much more powerful he is, I don't really think it is wank.
You have a brain, I suggest you use it. The comic came out in with the intent to settle the debate of who would win between these two, any amp would certainly be mentioned and it can only be TPM Maul by virtue of him being the only one to exist at the time. Which doesn't mean shit, considering Ben is primarily a defensive fighter. Also amusing how you use the Death Star novel, yet neglect to mention the parts where Vader admits Kenobi being able to kill him if he faltered for even a second, toying my ass.
So you're arguing Ben is hindered just by being in Vaders presence? Certainly makes his performance even more impressive. Wiz: And who better to represent both sides of the Force than both sides of the Chosen One, who became the galaxy's greatest hero and its greatest villain.
Boomstick: Now, I know there have been some scenarios where both Anakin and Vader have fought as a form of "inner conflict". Wiz: But for this list, we will analyze these two halves as individuals. So that means no plot constructions and continuity is required.
We'll also present these characters 'before' and 'after' Anakin's ascension to the Dark Side. Death Battle Fanon Wiki Explore. Death Battles Category. Help Pages. Activity Feed.
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